Horrible laws on electric bikes

Home Forums The Hub Horrible laws on electric bikes

This topic contains 11 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by avatar fred 1 year, 5 months ago.

Viewing 12 posts - 1 through 12 (of 12 total)
Author Posts
Author Posts
January 17, 2012 at 4:50 pm #5502
avatar
fred

The lace pantied bureaucrats in Belgium have totally jerked the electric bike movement around.

To be clear, no one wants little old ladies run over by bikes going 50 mph on bike paths. No one wants 70 kg behemoths with 4 strap on lead acid batteries manouvering around pedestrians.

Still, I would like to be able to climb a hill on my way to work without shifting down into 1st gear and going .5 kph or else pedaling and arriving sweaty.

Limit the speed at which the motors are allowed to assist the bike. Fine. Limit the weight. But what does power have to do with anything?

I’ve read the arguments but I don’t buy them. If we want to remove the petrol nozzle that is firmly planted 20 cm up our backsides, then electric cycling has to be reasonably useful in places other than flat Belgium. It could (gasp!) actually be fun!

Note: this was posted twice, much better placed here.

January 26, 2012 at 6:51 pm #5916
avatar
Ceri

Hello Fred, you can buy a Pedelec bike over 250 Watts by all measn, I dont think you should ban them, just that with extra power they should be regulated properly. That measn that the parts provided for them should be more strictly regulated than those for bikes or ≤ 0.25 kW Pedelecs, and that they should be reguklated as motor vehicles because that is what they are! They are certainly not bicycles. One of the consequences of this law would be that electric bikes with a whopping 1000 Watts of power and no pedals, just a throttle, would be classed as a bicycle. To a 14 year old kid this could be a real danger. How easy would it be to tamper with the software limiting speed? No one knows. From a standing start (ie at junctions) how will the greater acceleration contribute to accidents (75% of cycling accidents are at junctions)? No one knows. Going uphill the engine cuts out at 25 kph, then comes back in with a 1000 Watt jolt at 24.9 kph on a bike that has a cheap unregulated bike and motor with no progressive acceleration and an inexperienced driver. If the Commission have the lace panties then the Parliament have a too-risqué négligée on this one; not sure if that metaphor works but you get the gist.

February 16, 2012 at 5:04 pm #6586
avatar
Slow Factory

Ceri, thanks for clarifying that point about the 1kw bikes being classified as “bicycles”, BUT at the same time Fred is right that “bicycles” need to have more power than now.

April 3, 2012 at 2:51 pm #7330
avatar
fred

To Ceri:

Who says electric bikes > .25 kw are not bicycles? If I have a bicycle that weighs 20 kg and only has motor assist to 25 kph, who cares if it has 100 horsepower?.

All the rest of your points are imaginary: you make up stuff and then say how it will cause accidents: “Going uphill the engine cuts out at 25 kph, then comes back in with a 1000 Watt jolt at 24.9 kph on a bike that has a cheap unregulated bike and motor with no progressive acceleration and an inexperienced driver.” Strawman much? A 1000 Watt jolt at 24.9 mph? Get real. Instead of making up an absurdity to justify absurd laws, try explaining what the laws are written so stupidly.

The manufacturers will make bikes that work with the customer, just as the Pedalecs today work with the customer. In fact, it would be easy to make all the same stupid arguments that you made about 1000 Watts with today’s pedalecs.

Similarly, your argument that anything greater than .25 kw should be in the same class as a motorcycle or scooter is equally stupid. There is a huge difference in range. I wouldn’t have a problem if the EU said, for example, that testing crieria for strengths shall be multiplied by a .kw factor to ensure that electric bikes have the strength to match their power. Obviously I want safe bikes. But to say that a bike with the power to help someone up a hill has to go through the same testing that a motorcycle does is absurd.

Equally with licensing, et al.: why should a bike be able to be ridden on a road with no license but an electric bike not? I agree there is need for some controls but rational, sensible controls designed to stop the problem, NOT controls designed to protect the auto/moto industries.

I think your replies show either a financial or emotional bias because they really don’t make sense.

April 3, 2012 at 4:40 pm #7331
avatar
fred

By the way, maybe I am not alone in my judgement: European Parliament Agrees that E-Bike Safety Depends on Speed, Not Power

April 5, 2012 at 3:00 pm #7346
avatar
Ceri

Hello Fred,

We believe that speed is not the only quality that has an impact on safety. We also think, as do many of the European transport Safety organisations that power, acceleration, torque all have major contributing factors, particularly at junctions where many cycling accidents occur. In fact you can see here http://www.ecf.com/road-safety/high-powered-epacs/ that all manufacturers, all consumer groups, road sfatey organisations, road transport institutes, regulatory bodies have grave concerns over this.

I agree with you that high powered EPACS should not be tested in exactly the same way as motorbikes and that is why we agreed with the Commissions original proposal to have a subcategory of vehicle for powers between 250 and 1000 Watts within type approval. Just think ing off the top of my head, perhaps the Parliament could have worked this out within type approval to work with the Commissions new category rather than go for a full exclusion (too late now anyway)

Anything more than 250 watts (or 0.25 kW) and the majority of those riding them will be using the motor not the other way around, if a pedelec is to be classified as a bicycle then the rider must be greatly contributing to the effort. This is the difference between a motor vehicle and a bicycle; yes it will be a bit harder going uphill, there may need to be a bit more puff but that is what a bicycle is. If you take away the work rate it is no longer a bicycle. I say again we do not wish to ban any ebikes just have their place for regulation.

Yes this is an emotional subject (I will not dignify your financial suggestion with a response) but we firmly beleive that this will very much harm the steady but sometimes fragile growth of the bicycle in Europe. When we make policies for the bicycle we need to have a firm regulatory, legislative and legal distinction between motor vehicles and bicycles. We happily welcome sub 250 Watt EPAC’s as a bicyle as it has qualities similar enough to bicycles, but anything more and we must have a clear line. Again I repeat we do not want to ban higher powered vehicles but we have concerns with their safety (hence we need them to be properly regulated); we have concerns with where they sit in the regulatory field and how they are treated by our politicians around Europe(hence the need for a clear distinction between the bicycle and motor vehicle).

I have not even touched here on the economic consequences for the bicycle/EPAC industry, but there will be major repurcussions. It will create a patchwork of EU regulations; if they are not regultaed properly countries will apply there own regulations, killing off EU manufacturers. Chinese exporters would dump cheap powerful loer regultaed machines onto the market. Investment in quality motors and software would dry up (why bother with quality progressively assisted motors when you can have a simple motor instead).

We will see an electric revolution in two, three, perhaps four wheel vehicles this is something to look forward to but we must get the regulation right now or it will be hard to fix in the future.

April 10, 2012 at 1:16 pm #7364
avatar
fred

‘We’ ? You mean your post reflects the official position of the ECF? Good lord, what is the hidden agenda of the ECF?

You (eg the ECF) are making stuff up (see below) and who are you to decide?

1. ‘Pedalecs’ require the rider to do most of the work? Have you ever ridden a pedalec? All that is required is most minimal touch on the pedals and the motor does most of hte work.

2. “Chinese exporters would dump cheap powerful loer regultaed machines onto the market.” Yeah, sure. Your source for this? How is that different from pedalecs?

3. “I have not even touched here on the economic consequences for the bicycle/EPAC industry, but there will be major repurcussions. It will create a patchwork of EU regulations; if they are not regultaed properly countries will apply there own regulations, killing off EU manufacturers.” What a bunch of garbage. Where do you get your reasoning? Seriously, can you explain in detail how this conclusion is arrived? If the power limit on e-bikes/pedalecs is raised, it will create madness in Europe? Brilliant. Pull my other one.

4. “yes it will be a bit harder going uphill, there may need to be a bit more puff but that is what a bicycle is…” oh, right, I forgot, you get to decide what a bicycle is? What about all the people who disagree with you? The people who don’t live in Brussels where it is flat?

5. “power, acceleration, torque all have major contributing factors, particularly at junctions where many cycling accidents occur” oh, right, so the solution is to ban the whole thing? I think you are lying, but even if not, your solution is empty headed politics, not legislation.

I see your response and the ECF position as politics of protecting something. I don’t know what but it has nothing to do with the future of biking in Europe. What you are doing is preventing Europe from introducing energy efficient personal transportation that would be practical for most of us.

I do not want to go puffing up a hill on my way to work to arrive all sweaty? Do you? I don’t want to fight my way through traffic on an underpowered bike?

Imagine if serious electric biking was allowed. It would increase the population of people biking and help change the infrstructure to be more biking friendly. E-biking is healthy, ecological and financially beneficial to rider and society alike.

The ECF is standing in the way of doing something brilliant. No idea why beacuse you haven’t made a single rational point yet.

July 24, 2012 at 4:00 pm #9382
avatar
mjssite

“War was easier than daughters.”
One of my favorite quotes goes to my favorite remaining free agents, all of whom seem to becheap nfl jerseys
available at a discount right now:9 Anthony Tolliver (always, always, always liked him); Randy Foye (3-point shooting, played in some big games); Dominic McGuirecheap nfl jerseys
(a shockingly good perimeter defender); Leandro Barbosa (if you’re giving him away, absolutely); Carl Landry (ditto); Hamed Haddadi (like his energy, he could be a good backup center); Carlos Delfino (a better version of whatwholesale jerseys
Mickael Pietrus tried to do for Boston last spring); Shannon Brown (energy); and last but not least, Brian Cardinal (the premier NBA chemist on the market right now).
“I piss on Dothraki omens. I’ve waited 17 years to get my throne back.”
To Danny Ferry, who nfl jerseys cheap
became an immediate cult hero for dumping Marvin Williams (and his relatively offensive contract) and Joe Johnson (and his undeniably offensive contract) for expiring deals in a much-needed change of direction for Atlanta fans, cheap jerseys for sale
who had felt nothing other than “lukewarm” about their Hawks for five solid years. Sadly, they don’t have quite enough left for a legitimate Dwight Howardjerseys for cheap
run — it’s too bad Al Horford isn’t 22 percent better at basketball or they’d be right there. But if any team needed to be thrown in the washing machine for a fewcheap jerseys wholesale
minutes, it was the Atlanta Hawks.
The best thing going in Atlanta’s favor: There’s a historical precedent for a much-ballyhooed hire eventually bombing in Cleveland, then making the most of hisyouth jerseys cheap
second chance and winning titles. (See: Belichick, Bill.) The second-best thing going in Atlanta’s favor: God hates Cleveland.

September 7, 2012 at 3:02 am #9860
avatar
shaneB

I think that law is too horrible.

September 19, 2012 at 5:48 pm #9951
avatar
twilwel

250Watt is actually quite a lot. Given that ascents are mostly below 10% and assuming a riders power of 90Watts (which even untrained people can maintain for a long time), it makes the difference between walking uphill and riding at a modest, but reasonable speed. With this online calculator (http://www.kreuzotter.de/deutsch/speed.htm) that I used many times and proved easy to use and quite accurate, I found 3 km/h for no assist @ 90Watt human power and 11km/h @ 250+90=340Watt (10%climbs). At that speed it is still easy to keep your balance.
A 1000Watt motor will get you up the same incline to 25km/h even without pedalling, but one will also need heavier batteries (or quickly drain smaller capacities)
I do believe that the “kicking in of the engine” systems should be banned. It is much safer and comfortable to measure the force on the crank and let the the motor give a proportional boost.

March 28, 2013 at 5:37 pm #19815
avatar
abc356789

Considering all these things, therefore, it is apparent that it was all-important that the legislators of Rome do one of two things in acquisitive that Rome be as quiet as the aloft mentioned Republic, either not to apply the Plebs in war like the Venetians, wholesale jerseys or not to accessible the aperture to outsiders like the Spartans, But they did the one and the other, which gave the Plebs backbone and added ability and absolute opportunities for tumults. And if the Roman Accompaniment had appear to be added tranquil, wholesale jerseys it would accept resulted that she would accept become even added feeble, because there would accept been cut off from her the agency of getting able to attain that abundance which she achieved. So that Rome absent to abolish the causes for tumults, would aswell yield abroad the causes for expansion. And as in all animal affairs, wholesale jerseys those who appraise them will absolutely see that it is never accessible to abstain one aggravation but that accession one will bounce up. If therefore, you wish to accomplish a humans abundant and armed in adjustment to actualize a abundant Empire, you will accomplish it of a affectionate that you are not able after to administer it in your own way: if you accumulate them either baby or disarmed in adjustment to be able to administer them, [and], nfl cheap jerseys if you access added dominion, you will not be able to ascendancy them, or you will become so beggarly that you will become casualty to whoever assaults you. And therefore, in every one of our decisions, there care to be advised area the inconveniences are less, and again yield up the bigger proceeding, for there will never be formed annihilation absolutely bright of suspicion. Rome could therefore, like Sparta, accept created a Prince for life, cheap jerseys
and accustomed a bound Senate; but acquisitive to body a abundant Empire, she could not, like Sparta, absolute the amount of her Citizens: which, in creating a King for activity and a baby amount in the Senate, would accept been of little account in affiliation with her unity. If anyone accordingly should wish to authorize a new Republic, cheap nfl jerseys he should accept to accede if he should wish it to aggrandize in ascendancy and ability as did Rome, or whether it should abide aural attenuated limits. In the aboriginal case, it is all-important to authorize it as Rome, and to accord abode to tumults and accepted dissensions as best he can; for after a abundant amount of men, and [those] able-bodied armed, nfl jerseys no Republic can anytime increase, or if it did increase, to advance itself. In thy additional case he may authorize her as Sparta and Venice: but because amplification is the adulteration of such Republics, for such acquisitions, jerseys
based on a anemic Republic, are absolutely their ruin, as happened to Sparta and Venice, the aboriginal of which accepting subjected about all of Greece, showed the weakness of its foundation with the aboriginal accident; for if there ensued the apostasy of Thebes acquired by Pelopidas, the added cities aswell rebelling, nike jerseys wholesale broke that Republic entirely.

April 8, 2013 at 12:58 pm #19924
avatar
fred

@twilwel

Quote: “250Watt is actually quite a lot. Given that ascents are mostly below 10% and assuming a riders power of 90Watts (which even untrained people can maintain for a long time), it makes the difference between walking uphill and riding at a modest, but reasonable speed.”

Uh, huh. I beleive ti when it works. I’ve ridden a lot of electric bikes and what you say simply isn’t true. For example, a 750 Watt bike doesn’t carry me up even a moderate gradient. It helps, yes, it helps very much. But i can point to a lot of experience with B&B owners who offer their clients illegal electric bikes because they 250 watt models suck. Further, this may help a in shape trained biker who weighs 70 kilos soaking wet, it doesn’t necessarily help a middle aged overweight commuter with a briefcase, or an old lady shopping. These people should be the targets of electric biking as they are the ones most in need of it.

Further, the whole calculator assumes that the motors can function through reduced gearing. Most e-bikes don’t have that, they put the motor on the wheel because it is cheaper and easier. So your 250 watt calc has to deal with all sorts of practical considerations.

Finally, there is no reason for an arbitrary limit on power. Limit the weight, limit the speed, and, as your suggest, make the power available in some method other than instant kick in. But don’t take away the joy and freedom that electric biking provides for some bureaucratic reason.

Viewing 12 posts - 1 through 12 (of 12 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.